As we enter the 2020s, it’s a good time to consider what the future of work looks like — and to make sure it brings equal opportunity to everyone.

In this episode of The Business of Learning, Shane Kanady, vice president of workforce development at SourceAmerica, and Mika Cross, vice president of employer engagement and strategic initiatives at FlexJobs, share their thoughts on:

  • What we mean when we say “the future of work.”
  • Which groups are often left out in discussions about “the future of work.”
  • How learning leaders can help make workplaces more inclusive for people with disabilities.
  • How flexible work and training are helping make workplaces more woman- and veteran-friendly.

Listen now:

The transcript of this episode follows.

Sarah Gallo:
Welcome to the Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry.

Taryn Oesch:
Hi. Happy New Year. This episode of the Business of Learning is sponsored by Training Industry research.

Speaker:

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Sarah Gallo:
Hello, and welcome to a new season of the Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry. I’m Sarah Gallo, associate editor at Training Industry, here with my co-host, Taryn Oesch, managing editor.

Taryn Oesch:
Hi, and happy new year! I’m still adjusting to the fact that we’re not just in a new year, but in a new decade, and as we enter the 2020s, it’s a good time to consider what the future of work looks like, and to make sure it brings equal opportunity to everyone. That’s why we’re speaking today with Shane Kanady, vice president of workforce development at SourceAmerica. I know Shane from a project that we worked on last year. Shane, welcome to the podcast.

Shane Kanady:
Thank you so much for having me.

Taryn Oesch:
Shane, can you share with our audience a little bit about who SourceAmerica is and what you do there, and maybe a little bit on the project that we worked on together?

Shane Kanady:
Oh sure. So SourceAmerica is a 501c3 nonprofit organization. Our organization facilitates the employment of persons with disabilities through a national network of independent community service providers. So we have around 700 or so [providers] that we work with, and they’re located all throughout the country, including the territories of the United States. We’re one of three organizations, along with National Industries for the Blind and the American Foundation for the Blind, that operate under the federal AbilityOne Program. So we have a pretty unique designation as a central nonprofit agency in the United States. A little bit about me, I’ve been in the disability community for 18 years of my career. Most recently, [I] became vice president of workforce development here at SourceAmerica. Under that [position], I have a portfolio of programs and some very inspiring change makers that work on my teams that are focused on the social and economic mobility of persons with disabilities. Through my career I’ve done research; I’ve written some papers and reports, and have done some policy advising but mostly focused on the intersection of trends that are impacting how people with disabilities engage in the workforce. I have a master’s in social entrepreneurship from George Mason University and was a graduate research fellow with the Aspen Institute during my academic career, and I’m currently a fellow with the Royal Society of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce. A bit on the project: So Taryn graciously joined us for this very ambitious project that we have, the results of which will be published in the coming months, but came together with a group of stakeholders from the public sector, the private sector of the disability community, academic fields to think about the future of work and what that means for persons with disabilities throughout the United States. And as a starting point, we mapped the current landscape of employment for the community as we understood it, to really drill down on some of the causal relationships between what’s working and what’s not working, and then use[d] that as a springboard to design some ideas for what would make significant change in the future — to get to a future state that we would all aspire to be proud of and be part of.

Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, that’s great Shane. And going off of that, the future of work in and of itself is a phrase that’s bandied about a lot right now. What do you think people actually mean when they use this phrase, and what do you mean when you use it, if maybe you have a different definition yourself?

Shane Kanady:
Sure. Yeah, the most common association I think people have with that phrase is the rise of automation and the potential impact on the labor market, and the most common imagery that you see are robots, and usually humanoid looking robots that are used in reports and publications when people are talking about the future of work. Through that [definition], we often focus on the negative impacts [of the future of work], so the displacement of workers by technology, but there’s also some potential bright spots within that, where human labor is positively augmented by technology. There’s also a lot of groups that are out there doing some very exciting work looking through this [different] lens of the future of work, non-traditional forms of work, like the on-demand or gig economy, the idea of shareholder primacy and the idea of a new social contract between employers and workers, and variations and geographic impact of automation and globalization. Our definition of the future of work, when we talk about the research that we’ve done, the projects that we’ve done and how it relates to the disability community, is really the intersection of social, legislative, economic and technological trends, and how that’s impacting where, when and how people engage with work, specifically persons with disabilities.

Taryn Oesch:
What do you believe are some of the most significant changes that the workplace will see in the next several years?

Shane Kanady:
Sure. The idea of adapting to technological change is by no means a new thing. We’ve had multiple revolutions, industrial revolutions [and] technological revolutions throughout history where industries, [and] where employment, has changed significantly. And a lot of the speculation currently is about whether this new point in history represents a divergence from some of those past things that we’ve seen. But ultimately, workers are always adapting to new technology, and therefore having to acquire new skills because the companies that they work for are trying to remain competitive in their marketplaces. And that rate of disruption will not even be seen across the labor market or industries. So I think, getting to the point of your question, even the idea of the workplace itself is an evolving concept because people find work through various means — through platforms from home or in their cars [and] ride sharing services and those things are in response to demand by people and creating interpersonal value. And then [there’s] the idea of more and more remote work as people utilize technology in different ways. There are even examples of persons with disabilities remotely engaging with work through robots. If they have barriers to transportation, they are actually speaking through the robots as the robots provide customer service in a food industry. So the idea of the workplace itself is even an evolving concept.

Sarah Gallo:
It definitely seems like it. How do you think that all these changes that are going to happen in the future will impact workers, and how do you think they will also impact employers as well?

Shane Kanady:
So, from the idea of the worker’s standpoint, there will be an urgency to gain new skills in response to these changes. Those include soft skills, so creating interpersonal value, which is often used as a beacon for what the future might be, what might be sustainable in the future. There’s customer service empathy, those things that are not easily automated away, but then there’s also technical skills and how we interact with and benefit from technology. So [there’s] that urgency to gain new skills, but that’s going to be different for individuals in different contexts. So, the access to those skill acquisition programs, it’s going to vary geographically. It’s going to vary by economic status, what is affordable in terms of those programs and are those individuals currently attached to companies that are willing to invest in their workforce and see a benefit there? Employers are really in a position to help identify what the skills [the] for the future will be, because they are looking at their industries; they’re looking at the cost benefit of investing in technology and understanding the value that workers can still create as they bring on new and new technology. So if they see a benefit in investing in their workforce, they can identify those skills for the future and orient their training programs in that direction. But largely, this conversation applies to those individuals who are attached to the labor force … the millions of people that are not attached to the labor force, that’s where there’s an area of concern because will there be an investment in them [and their] the skills for the future, and their opportunities for the future if they’re not currently even counted in the unemployment rates, or recognized within the larger context of the labor market, who is going to invest in them?

Taryn Oesch:
Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Who are those people and why are we concerned so much about them, especially in the future of work?

Shane Kanady:
Sure. So in our case, we’re talking about persons with disabilities, over 10 million persons with disabilities who are not attached to the labor market in the United States and across age demographics, across varying degrees of economic status and educational attainment. [There’s] so much diversity, so much context that’s wrapped up in that. But looking statistically, that number of individuals, if society largely does not assign a commensurate amount of value to different groups, then there’s going to be a lack of investment in those groups, in their education and their skills acquisition, [and] in their supports and employment, and giving them opportunities. So the concern is, as we move toward this future state and as people who are predisposed to be very successful in the use of technology [and are] comfortable with the use of technology, have always had access to technology. They will continue to accelerate in their success. Whereas the individuals who don’t have that access, who haven’t been invested in, there is an opportunity for them to fall even farther behind and create these widening social divides.

Sarah Gallo:
And how can employers ensure equitable employment and advancement opportunities as we move into the future of work?

Shane Kanady:
So given the idea of investing in workers [and] seeing value in groups and diversity … I don’t want to say that we can ensure anything, but the underlying problem is a social one, where we place disparate amounts of value on different groups. So, we need to work toward progress in that direction in equity and inclusion. So, it’s about fundamentally challenging [our] bias toward others. So in the case of persons with disabilities, it’s a recognition that they’re no less capable of contributing to the productivity, profits and culture of an organization than their non-disabled peers. And there’s a lot of barriers to overcome within that mindset. So, awareness of the diversity and skills value and talent within the community [is critical]. We often see this as a typical question that’s asked, is what kind of jobs can persons with disabilities do? And really, would you ask that question about any other group?
So, it underscores a level of bias or an association with persons with disabilities and limited expectations. So, employers need to be receptive to learning and understanding and expanding their thought process. And then based on that, authentically commit to being inclusive. It’s a mindset [shift] and a culture shift. Other things that we can engage on are stigmas around workplace accommodations. We all, as employees, have some level of accommodation in our work, and it’s varying degrees of context and investment that goes into that. But it’s about really underscoring the value that people can create if given the opportunity, and if given the accommodations to be engaged in that work. And then, the processes used to identify, screen and interview candidates must be inclusive. So, as we rely more and more on technology to identify potential candidates, the bias that are programmed into algorithms for screening out candidates really can have a negative impact on the disability community. And that’s something that employers should be aware of and should strive to overcome.

Taryn Oesch:
On the flip side of that, are there any opportunities that you see these new technologies, automation, the future of work in general as we’ve been talking about it. Do you see any opportunities as presents to help individuals with disabilities become more included in the workplace? Either from the employer standpoint or from the employee standpoint?

Shane Kanady:
Absolutely. Moving from some of the scarier and more negative things that we sometimes focus on, the positive attributes, the bright spots are out there. Technology has incredible potential to remove barriers to inclusion and not just for persons with disabilities, but across [many] different groups. In the case of the community that we talk about, the increased use of telepresence and avatars and other forms of technology that allow people to be present at work despite transportation barriers that they might engage in or the impacts of their disabilities, which might create some barriers to being physically in a workspace, but there’s ways to use technologies to still be engaged. Advancements in artificial intelligence (AI), speech recognition, and real-time captioning and visual image recognition, those things are all vital resources that can engage or help people to engage in work in different ways, different fields that they might have not imagined that they could before and just the general augmentation of cognitive and physical skills with AI robotics when it comes to processing information or performing manual tasks. There are so many emerging forms of technology out there that really could be helpful in breaking into new lines of business for people, new career fields and broadening their horizons for what they think their career options are.

Sarah Gallo:
And going off of that, what maybe challenges does the future of work present when it comes to training employees with disabilities?

Shane Kanady:
I think it’s really, it comes down to, it’s a matter of access. Access from the starting point of what we’ve talked about in terms of recognition of value and investment, willingness to invest and seeing the benefits of that community in the workplace. So, we need to get to a place where there is an assignment of value that people will do those things, but also the training methods themselves, they can be a challenge. So the way that the resources are constructed, the way that the training is distributed, making sure that those things are inclusive of the wide diversity of people with disabilities that are out there … and that’s not just from a physical accessibility standpoint, but also from a cognitive understanding standpoint. Making sure that the language is such that you are being inclusive of who can engage with those resources to acquire those skills.

Taryn Oesch:
Right, and I’m always the optimist. So again, on the flip side of that, [in] what ways can we see maybe training innovate in the future of work to improve this training for people with disabilities and make it a better and more effective experience for them?

Shane Kanady:
It’s, again, the platforms [and] the power of the technology that we have. If you look at things like open online courses and even using something like YouTube, people engage with learning in different ways. But it’s utilizing all of those different methodologies to reach an expanded audience and reach them where they are geographically, reach them where they are economically on making things available at a cost that is affordable. [Inclusivity requires] democratizing some of that information, some of that learning and the broader benefit of individuals having opportunity. I think technology can be a great enabling force in that. And employers really have, they have the knowledge for what their needs are going to be in these emerging markets. So to be able to couple those things together and distribute that information, hopefully, will help to expand opportunity.

Sarah Gallo:
Well I certainly hope so. Alright, well Shane, is there anything else you’d like to add or any thoughts you’d like to leave us with today?

Shane Kanady:
I just want to thank you for the opportunity to be part of this conversation. It’s only been in the last year and a half or so that the disability community has been largely engaging in this topic of the future of work and there has been more initiatives popping up around that. So any opportunity that we have to talk with your audience to raise that awareness and to be engaged in these conversations I think is critically important. So I thank you for that opportunity.

Taryn Oesch:
Well thank you, Shane. It’s been great talking to you today and you’re doing some great work so we all appreciate it. Thanks for joining us today on The Business of Learning.

Shane Kanady:
Thank you so much.

Sarah Gallo:
Next up, we’re speaking with Mika Cross, Vice President of Employer Engagement and Strategic Initiatives at FlexJobs. Mika, welcome.

Mika Cross:
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited.

Taryn Oesch:
To get started, we know that the line between work and life often becomes blurred as new technologies allow for greater connectivity among team members and managers. So with that in mind, Mika, how can organizations support work-life balance in the future of work?

Mika Cross:
Well, that’s a great question, and I think it’s one that’s near and dear to most managers and even leaderships and organizations, because the concern is that when you start allowing for different modalities of work and increase levels of flexibility, that people really are all over the place. So ensuring that there is the ability for employees to feel supported, have a choice and a say in how they can best bring their work to the job when they’re on duty, but also facilitate a structure around it too, so they’re not getting burnt out or overworked, is incredibly important. And the first thing I like to advise organizations who are looking to lean on different modalities of work and also increase their startup [with] different flexible work programs is really to invite your employees to the conversation. It’s a fact that we have about five generations of workers in the workplace with us now. Older workers are staying much longer. We’re hiring people in to earn while you learn positions, even though internships and in college programs. So there’s a lot of room for accidental blending of work in life if not done appropriately. But it’s also really incredibly important to have the right technology and the right policies to support whatever kind of flexible work or remote work programs you have in place in order to support the different ways of working that are going to really set up companies and organizations for success when we’re thinking about the future of work as well. So, ways to stay connected through technology and communications and collaboration platforms are really important, but also letting people know as soon as they come in the door, and even maybe if I could go so far as to talk about the candidate experience, when they’re a candidate for hire, what it means to work for this particular organization and what the norms and expectations [are] around culture, availability [and] accessibility, and also for personal growth and [making] room for what’s important in your life outside of work with regards to use of leave policies and paid time off and those flexible programs, are incredibly important as well.

Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, it’s definitely a fine line to navigate, isn’t it? But definitely one we should keep top of mind. We’re also seeing more and more organizations shift away from the traditional nine to five work schedule. Do you think that the rise of flexible and remote work can actually advance diversity and inclusion in the future of work?

Mika Cross:
I absolutely do, and I’ve seen it firsthand. In my role here at FlexJobs, I work with employers of all sizes, types [and] industries, from government, public service and nonprofit, to academia to Fortune 500 [companies], and even mom-and-pop startups. And if there’s one thing I know, [it] is that the increased demand for flexible ways of working is not going anywhere. It’s completely on the rise. We’ve seen a 159% growth in remote work offering[s] — and that doesn’t mean fully remote [work opportunities] only. It means a variety of in-office and maybe some partial remote options, as well as part-time, seasonal employment, shift work, alternate and compressed work schedules, [or it can] really be all of the above in this future of work environment. And so, the ability for companies to connect with talent regardless of location and also based on preference, [is expanding]. Again, when can we get the best from our workers and the talent that we’re looking to connect with? When, where and how they do their best work is increasingly important to the bottom line for any kind of employer and organization. So, in leveraging flexible work programs, you’re really lifting away some of those traditional barriers to employment for different demographics of workers, whether that be individuals with disabilities, both physical and hidden as well, whether that be military spouses who are serving as the only sole family member on the ground when their service member is either deployed or in training. Those are single parents, older workers, caregivers [or] really, all of the above. So, flexible work really helps to facilitate a structured and integrated strategy for attracting a diverse and inclusive workforce.

Sarah Gallo:
Definitely. And how would you suggest organizations actually create flexible work environments for employees? And how can these work environments also attract and retain talent in the future?

Mika Cross:
Yeah, well I think it’s really interesting because we are quickly shifting away from the traditional industrial-age archetype of what work is. Not very many positions require you to be on-site and physically present or on a piece of machinery or equipment anymore. Some do but, really [even in those cases], we could start thinking about even shifts in work schedule[s]. Does there have to be a traditional start time? Could you move your work teams to a shift work type [of] environment? I know an organization out of the state of Maryland who’s focused on emergency management and disaster preparedness, and they just changed to 12 hour shifts, but they structure it with their policies such that all the team members are on-site at the same time at least one day a week for collaboration and meetings and those sorts of things. I think first and foremost, it’s really key to focus on the mission. What kinds of responsibilities are required of the job at hand? Who are your customers and when are they available? And how can you facilitate collaboration, responsiveness and accessibility no matter what, through technology and collaboration? It can’t be done just simply through that, but these kinds of flexible work arrangements really do help facilitate a better way of working. Some people, also by choice, choose to work a traditional position where they are in office. Not everyone has the aptitude to be able to work well independently or in, I don’t want to say isolation, but when you’re working from home away from the traditional office setting, it’s really key for organizations to structure their policies around the work at hand first and the requirements of the job, but also considering what’s in the best interest of their customers, their stakeholders and where their employees reside. So, you can facilitate that through collaboration and technology, but you cannot lean on it entirely. So the very best organizations who do this really well offer a variety of work schedules, both part-time and full-time, and some remote friendly work options. It’s also important to manage expectations up front. So organizations who actually embed the type of flexibility that a particular job has available to them in the position description will attract the right candidate who that would work [not only] for their career, but also for their life.

Taryn Oesch:

Alright. So earlier in this episode we talked to Shane Kanady about employment for individuals with disabilities in the future of work. And I’d like to talk a little bit about a couple of other underrepresented [groups], or at least some groups that might face additional challenges in the work world. And so let’s start with women. Do you see any of the challenges that are currently faced by women diminishing in the future of work? And are there any new challenges that you think women might face in the future?

Mika Cross:
I think that’s a great question to focus on. And some of the trends that we’re seeing, especially as it relates to remote work and distributed work, are that women are able to strip away the traditional barriers for equity in the workplace when it comes to pay. But also when it comes to working in an organization that might have in the past valued face time and one-on-one in-person interactions, more so than the value of the output in the productivity of their work. And so, in these kinds of environments, women typically tend to thrive very much so —especially if they have other competing priorities like parenting, or caregiving [for] a spouse or partner, or being able to further their education. Flexible ways of work allow them to able to take care of those responsibilities while still thriving in their regular job as well.

Taryn Oesch:
Alright. So, going off of that, how do you see these changing workplace dynamics that we’ve been talking about impacting the way that organizations and learning and development in particular can help women succeed now and into the future?

Mika Cross:
Well, in the learning and development field, I think it’s really important for companies to increasingly focus on setting all workers up for success. And so that [means] helping them navigate how to position themselves successfully in a remote work environment that might embrace different work schedules or modalities of work in different technologies. The future of work really allows for a lot of freedom, but you have to be able to match those job opportunities with the right caliber of talent, too. And so, I think being able to help navigate how you stay present in a workplace that isn’t always just [a] physical presence any longer is incredibly important. Equipping women, especially, with skills also in how to navigate negotiating salary and benefits and different types of work schedules will also, I think, do really well to help level the playing field, so to speak, in a number of ways, and then ensuring that the learning and development and technology pieces are all working together to equip all workers with the right sets of skills to continue really a continuous learning environment where you’re not just rescaling or upskilling, but continuously skilling into new ways of working.

Sarah Gallo:
Going off of that, Mika, you mentioned that benefits can be critical in helping women advance in the workplace. Are there any benefits, specifically, that you see benefiting women in the corporate world?

Mika Cross:
Well, absolutely. A lot of organizations — where there’s a hybrid offering of in-office and other flexibilities — offer new moms the ability to have privacy [when breastfeeding]. There’s nursing mothers programs that are available. Of course, paid parental leave is the big rage now. I think our country is one of the only, if not the only, industrialized nation that doesn’t offer paid family leave. And I would say that would really help to retain women in the workplace as well and set them up for success as they’re integrating back after either adoption, or fostering, or birthing their own child.

Mika Cross:
And then there’s this dynamic of the sandwich generation. So, these are workers who might be caring for dependent children in the home, but also now have the responsibility of taking care of a family member. This also hits home when you’re thinking about recruitment of military families and military spouses, again, back to that topic as well, which really if you think about it, you could consider an issue of national security: If we’re not equipping our workplaces to support women and thriving, then they’re unable to support, or really any spouse, their service member in defending this country when the time is called for them to do so. So these programs, and again the wave of the future is really set up to allow for employees to have more flexibility in how they structure their time but still focus on accountability and results. And it’s incredibly important, as organizations are focusing on developing and expanding their learning and development programs, to help people succeed in that kind of an environment. Because even though they may not choose to participate in a certain way of working, it’s likely that their coworkers or colleagues might, or even their customers.

Sarah Gallo:
For sure. And that leads into my next question for you. We do know that veterans, like you mentioned, are another underrepresented community in the workplace today. Do you think that L&D can help attract and retain military veterans and their spouses in the future?

Mika Cross:
That learning and development can,? I think, for sure, [it can]. And if you combine that with the things that we’ve been talking about today, which are nontraditional ways of working, you’re going to help really attract organizations in bringing in the right talent and skill sets that they otherwise might not be able to connect with. So, lots of times when military veterans transition out of uniform service on active duty, they’re looking to either go back to [their] hometown [in the U.S.], which could be in rural areas all across the country, or they’re looking to find a job near the installations that they’ve settled in the last time because for proximity it gets easier. So having a really well-structured learning and development program that helps integrate military service members, veterans and [military] spouses into the civilian labor market as it stands now, but also setting them up for success in the future, is incredibly powerful — and will set them up for long-term success in the civilian labor force.

Sarah Gallo:
Do you have any advice on how to train veterans just re-entering the workforce?

Mika Cross:

I think it depends. A lot of veterans may already have had an experience in the civilian world where they’ve worked while in one occupation. One thing, I think that’s important to keep in mind when you’re talking about attracting veterans to the workplaces, is that oftentimes you’d consider, or you might think, that a veteran would want to stay in the same occupational series or in the same family as they have done in the military … and that’s not often the case. So, a lot of times they’re looking to advance their education or get hands-on experience in a different field. So I really love this model of earn-while-you-learn, [or] an apprenticeship-type of position where you can integrate veterans into the workplace, provide them with regular learning and development and training maybe on the technical aspects [of a role], but also get them some hands-on [experience] because once you get them into the field and into the culture, they’re really going to thrive. I think hands-on experience is extremely important and powerful and maybe not only just for veterans, [but] really for anyone. I know that a lot of elementary and middle schools are focusing on non-traditional ways of learning and it’s really important and powerful to give people the option to be able to have tactile and hands-on, learning as well as the traditional L&D processes.

Taryn Oesch:
Alright. To wrap things up, Mika, do you have any final thoughts that you want to leave us with about the future of work and ensuring equal opportunity for all employees?

Mika Cross:
Yeah, I do. I think a lot of times organizations who are putting together new programs that are focused on adopting future of work modalities, sometimes forget about the aspect of culture and the importance of ensuring that their management team understands how to connect with people still, because you can have all the best policies in place, amazing job opportunities and all the different kinds of flexibility that we could throw at you, but if you’re not connecting with the person — as well and setting up structures for them to feel like they’re supported in the workplace, in any workplace, whether that’s in a remote work from home position or whether that’s in a traditional office — oftentimes, you’ll see turnover is more high and it’s more challenging to recruit and also retain a diverse workplace. So, when you’re thinking about inclusion, it’s really around how can you encourage the voices, the ideas, and the collaboration from all of your great employees to come together and work together. And that takes work. It’s part-technology, [and] it’s part-policy, but it’s also a big part of culture. What is that great quote that says, I think it’s, “Culture will eat strategy for breakfast.” And so, it’s really important to focus on the culture piece, and how do you bring new employees into your organization and keep them connected. And that takes that personal skills, not just the traditional L&D tactics that we’ve seen in the past.

Taryn Oesch:
All right, Mika, thanks so much for joining us today at The Business of Learning. It was great talking with you.

Mika Cross:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate being on this segment.

Sarah Gallo:
For more insights on training and the future of work and for an animated version of this episode’s highlights, check out the show notes for this episode at trainingidustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.

Taryn Oesch:
And if you’re enjoying this podcast, please rate and review us. Thanks for listening.

Sarah Gallo:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry Podcast.

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