One of the most well-known and popular models in L&D is 70-20-10. Recent research by Training Industry updated the model to the 55-25-20 model and reinforced the importance of social interactions and collaborations as a part of an employee’s learning experience.

This type of learning creates an issue of control and curation, as learners may be accessing content that may not meet the organization’s standards – it might not be accurate, it may be out of date or it may just be wrong.

How can you balance the benefits of social learning with the need to have content appropriately vetted and curated? To answer this question, we spoke with Lauren Harris, CPTM, of the University of Colorado Boulder and Juliana Stancampiano of Oxygen Learning.

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The transcript of this episode follows.

Intro:
Welcome to the Business of Learning: The learning leader’s podcast from trainingindustry.com.

Taryn:
Hello, and welcome to The Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from trainingindustry.com. I’m Taryn Oesch, managing editor of digital content at Training Industry.

Scott:
Hi, and I’m Scott Rutherford.

Taryn:

Before we get started today, I’d just like to say that this episode of The Business of Learning is sponsored by Training Industry research.

Amanda:

As a training professional, your job is to effectively manage the business of learning. You probably listen to this podcast to gain insights on L&D trends being used by some of the most innovative thought leaders in our market. But did you know that Training Industry also provides data-driven analysis and best practices through our premium research reports? Our entire catalog, including reports on topics such as deconstructing 70-20-10, women’s access to leadership development, learner preferences and the state of the training market, to name a few, can be found at trainingindustry.com/shopresearch. New insights create new ways for L&D to do business – let Training Industry research reports assist you in taking your learning initiatives to new heights. Go to trainingindustry.com/shopresearch to view our entire catalog.

Scott:
Before we get started with today’s episode, I wanted to share with you that this will be my last episode of The Business of Learning. So while I’m moving on to other projects, I’m very happy to introduce Sarah Gallo. She’ll be taking over as co-host of the podcast with Taryn.

Taryn:
Sarah is one of my colleagues on the editorial team, and she does a lot of great writing for the website. Sarah, welcome to The Business of Learning.

Sarah:
It’s great to be here.

Taryn:
Today, we’re talking to two guests about a topic that’s always relevant, but especially so in today’s digital environment. One of the most well-known and popular models in learning and development is 70-20-10, and recent research by Training Industry updated the model to the 55-25-20 model, and it really reinforced the importance of social interactions and collaboration as a part of the employee’s learning experience.

Scott:
So, we know that employees respond well to social and on-the-job learning but, from the perspective of the training manager, this kind of learning creates an issue of control and curation, as learners may access content that may not meet the organization’s standards, because it may be out of date or maybe it’s just plain wrong.

Sarah:
How can you balance the need to have content appropriately vetted and curated? To answer this question and more today, we’re speaking with Lauren Harris, and Juliana Stancampiano. Lauren is a training and development manager at the University of Colorado Boulder, and a Certified Professional in Training Management. Juliana is CEO of Oxygen Learning and author of “Radical Outcomes: How to Create Extraordinary Teams that Get Tangible Results,” which was published earlier this year. Juliana and Lauren, welcome!

Lauren:
Hi, it’s great to be here. This is Lauren. Thank you.

Juliana:
Yeah, and this is Juliana. It’s great to be here as well, and it is such a popular topic.

Taryn:
So, let’s start off with the basics. How do you define social learning, and how does it relate to content curation? Maybe Lauren, let’s start with you.

Lauren:
Sure. So when it comes to social learning too, I think I have a little bit of a different definition as [to] where I think really folks are out there just trying to put pieces together in the workplace, and when they’re trying to onboard to a new role, or [when] they’re trying to learn a new knowledge subset or understand how the culture works, or how to interact with others … it just organically happens, right?

Lauren:
So, I don’t know that there’s as much hands-on [learning] all the time, whereas it’s just happening all the time, right? So, people are out there engaging with their colleagues, they’re watching how people engage in the organization, they’re picking up those unspoken cues as to what’s acceptable and what’s not, and where people go to and where they don’t, and those types of things. So, I think I have a little bit more of a maybe informal and authentic definition of social learning. So, I’ll pause there.

Juliana:
Yeah, that’s great, Lauren. I think I would just tag on to that, and agree, and kind of pull it back. My definition of social learning has always been [that] it’s something that we’ve been doing since [the time we] we could talk as humans. Essentially, that is the first kind of recognized time when we can explain something to somebody else so that they potentially don’t do, or make our mistakes, and this is very rudimentary, like, “Hey, the red snakes are going to bite you and you could die,” type of learning, which through time has accelerated.

Juliana:
And now, we’re in a time where our sophistication with social learning is extremely high, and the amount of knowledge that’s kind of known from a society perspective is very deep, and so that kind of tags in too if you look at the corporate view of that and pull it around to probably most of your audience. We’re going to learn a lot through talking to our peers, talking to our managers, listening to the people that are in [our] organizations or in roles that we aspire to be in, in order to learn and to get information as we move forward. So, that’s kind of my view of social learning and a very fast evolution of it.

Scott:
So, that all makes sense, and I think that the challenge then comes in is, our jobs are to impose structure on that, right? So, maybe let me phrase the question this way: Who should be responsible to curate learning content? Is that a training manager or the instructional designer? Is it self-curated by the learner, or should it be its own role that focuses on that particular challenge? And, maybe Juliana, do you want to start with that one?

Juliana:
Yeah, I’m happy to jump in on this. So, we do a lot of corporate work at Oxygen, and I would say it’s not actually one person’s role, but it is maybe one person’s role to facilitate the dialogue between a lot of different stakeholders, and we look at it from the business as an entity — and so what’s the strategy? What direction are we moving? We look at it from, to your point, the audience that you’re creating something for: what are their need, and what’s going to work for them? And then, we also look at it potentially depending on the role that you’re curating content for, through a customer lens, and what their needs are if somebody is in a customer service role, or if they’re in a sales role, and [in terms of] an external facing role. So, we look a lot of times at our roles being the facilitators of figuring out those three things so that we can then curate the content in order to meet the needs of those three prongs, versus one person. I don’t see it as a linear path, but when you bring those three things together, we’ve found a lot of success in doing that, and then curating content specific to the role that somebody who’s expected to be able to do, and then you can also measure it to your point earlier about how do we figure out if people are out doing social learning, and then there’s this content, and what if it’s not right or accurate to what we want somebody to be doing? When you create something that is very role-centric, you can create a way to measure it through knowing what somebody needs to know and do at different points in time during their role.

Scott:
And Lauren, do you want to jump in on that?

Lauren:
Absolutely. I thought that was very eloquently put, and I fully agree with Juliana that there is not one owner. Coming from an internal consultant [point of view], if you’d like to call me that, whereas I work across campus but I don’t live in any one department, I think my main role of helping my clients understand the content that is best needed to solve their solutions is really by asking great questions. Oftentimes, folks will come to me with a solution that they think that they need to solve the problem that they think they have, and after we go through a pretty robust consultation process, but identify that maybe the problem they’re identifying is actually not the underlying issue, and then [recognize that] the solution that they were identifying doesn’t actually get at anything they were hoping to accomplish. And so I think [that] by being able to have those really robust conversations, and get to [the] true [questions of] what is the problem that we’re trying to solve? What is the need that exists, and then what is the content that’s best going to support that?

Sarah:
Definitely … and where does that content come from? How have you seen organizations, or your own organization, obtain, create, manage and share content?

Lauren:
Yeah, that’s a great question. We curate our content from a variety of areas and industries and platforms. So one is definitely, I have a team of trainers and a team of OD [organizational development] consultants, and so we have a lot of expertise just in and of ourselves, [so] that we know where to pull from when we are creating content [on topics] such as coaching or leadership development, or some of those bigger soft skills components. That’s definitely the world they live in. It is a soft skills world, and then we partner with a lot of external vendors such as Training Industry, such as VitalSmarts, such as LinkedIn Learning. Our LMS [learning management system] is Skillsoft, so there is a lot of built-in content there as well, and I am lucky to work on a higher-ed campus, and so I have a plethora of experts and research happening at my fingertips. So, even being able to pull on just the amazing ideas and brains that exist at this organization is another place where we curate our content.

Sarah:
For sure … and Juliana, do you have anything to add?

Juliana:
Yeah, I think that’s great, and I love that we’re coming at it from a couple of different lenses, and the university, when you asked about the content there, it’s like “Wow.” Yeah, to your point, there’s so many experts that you have all around you, which is fantastic. So, we do a lot of similar things with clients. So, I don’t know that it’s necessary to repeat it but, obviously, there’s a lot of different areas where we can curate content. I think what we have found to be the most important thing in curating the content is ensuring that the content is created for the person, and [that] it’s easy for somebody to access and to get [to]. And so we do a lot of role-based enablement, or learning, where it’s created for that specific role, and then they know that it’s created specifically for them, be it a video that was pulled from a TEDx talk or an article that was written in Training Industry, or something that was created through their own subject matter experts, which we do a lot of work with internal[ly] to a business is the interviews of subject matter experts, and then pulling, kind of extracting out of them what they know and creating something that is easy for somebody to digest and understand, retain and be able to do something with. So, that’s kind of the view that we typically take to curating that content, but [across] many different areas. We’re lucky that content is just about everywhere today, which has its ups, and downs, and I would say that this is spot-on to talk about content curation, because we’re finding more and more with clients, that’s actually the battle — there’s so much [content] to pick from that where do people start? And a lot of times, if it’s overwhelming for them to navigate, they will just go to the peer method of what Scott was talking about earlier, and then we don’t quite know if they’re going to get what they actually need or not. So, the more we can curate for people in their role, I think the better.

Sarah:
Yeah, and what are some common challenges organizations face when it comes to social learning and content curation?

Lauren:
I think Juliana hit on probably the biggest barrier, which is just the digital age and the information age of the internet, and where we live right now, and that you can access anything at your fingertips at any time practically anywhere in the world, and while there is a lot of benefit that brings, obviously that also identifies a pretty large barrier when we’re trying to direct folks to a specific idea or outcome or process or way of doing things.

Juliana:
Yeah, and I’d add onto that that we’ve done a lot of this work in a couple of very large organizations, and the management of the content, I think this kind of will be an evolution if we’re not already seeing it as kind of that librarian role. We talk about it a lot as performing a service for an organization, and so the internal L&D group or sales enablement group will be providing different services to the business, and to the people that they support, so that they’re constantly updating and servicing the content that exists for somebody, and I think that that’s also a crucial element. There is so much content out there. So, we curate it all, but then it can’t just sit on the shelf for a year, because in a year in this world, it’s very old at that point, right? And so, how do we keep it up? And so we do a lot of work in the serviceability of the content, and how are we reviewing videos that are created, or whatever that might be, and creating things in smaller kind of files so that they are easier to update and keep fresh, because what we also find: You can curate content, but if the content’s out-of-date, or not relevant, people then also stop coming back to it, right? So, it’s a massive job in today’s world to curate content … [that] is what we’ve been finding.

Taryn:
And I think the kind of the elephant in the room here is the emerging role of artificial intelligence and machine learning in content curation. How are your organizations, or other organizations that you work with, using these new technologies in content curation?

Lauren:
So, I’m happy to take a stab at that one, because I think it’ll be a fairly short answer. We’re obviously not doing a lot right now. So, we are starting to dip our toe[s] into those amazing abilities, and what it’s going to bring for us. We really have a big focus on what the future work is going to hold, and what the future skills of successful employees are going to be, and then how we then curate content to help enable that. So I think from a L&D perspective, it’s more [that] we’re trying to understand what are the skills that our employees are going to need to be able to interact with machine learning [and] to be able to interact with AI, to be able to utilize it as a function of their job. So, I think that that’s kind of the baseline we’re taking right now. We’re not really utilizing it at this point to inform our learning. Right now, it’s more the flip side of how we upskill our employees to be able to engage with the[se] future technologies.

Juliana:
So, I can add onto that. We have a few clients that are stepping into it and [are] using it. I think the thing with AI and machine learning is that it takes time for it to learn, too. So, it’s not an immediate answer, and I think in my mind, that might be the bigger elephant in the room that people aren’t talking about, because everybody’s talking about machine learning and AI, and it kind of being potentially the next silver bullet as we say, but it’s not either. It takes time [to learn from data sets], and it takes usage of the content, and numbers to amass behind that, which just again takes more time before the machine becomes smart, or the learning gets there, so that it can then start proposing things. Essentially, what we’re seeing clients working toward is to make it so that people are starting to use it. They are tracking it on the back end so that eventually, say if you’re in sales, and you’re in some part of an opportunity, it potentially pops up some content that says, “Hey, 600 of your other peers needed this document at this point in this opportunity. Perhaps this is going to be the most useful thing for you right now,” or, “Hey, here’s a reminder of something that you might want to address with your client at this point.” And I think through time, that’s going to be extremely helpful. You know, similar with searching for a soft skill. They may then get whatever it is that people have used over and over again. So, to Lauren’s point about if there’s a process that we need somebody to know, or a soft skill that we’re training on, and I think soft skills [are] a really interesting point to point out because a lot of times people ask us, “Well, which one should we use?” And I always just say, “Well, just pick one,” because I think the biggest thing is [maintaining] consistency of what people are learning across an organization so that there’s a common language and understanding, versus one being better than the other. That’s not necessarily as much the case today as it used to be. So, I think there’s some of that, that the more that you can get people to be using what you want them to be using it as an organization and the AI and the machine learning, and pick it up in the background, then the more it’ll be fed in the future as time goes on. So, we’re seeing it slowly [being] adopted, I guess to say, throughout the organizations that we’re working with.

Sarah:
Yeah, and what do you think is next for these technologies?

Juliana:
Oh man, they’re going to try to read our mind eventually and preempt us, but I actually think the technologies are going to learn a lot about how people are consuming and what they do consume, and that’s probably going to be the most helpful for us. To the point of what we were talking about earlier with the content curation is to slim down our libraries, and the content that we have to what somebody really needs to be successful in the role that they’re in, and that’s what I’m probably most excited about, what that’s going to be able to do for us, but I’m sure people are excited for different reasons too. Lauren, what are you guys excited about at the university?

Lauren:
Yeah, I think the biggest thing I’m excited about is, well, one, I think people are beginning to overcome this fear that a computer or a robot or a machine is going to replace their job, especially for folks that live in the world that I work in, right? We’re a very intellectual environment. We think a lot. We create. We design. We don’t do a lot of automation. We don’t do a lot of the same thing over and over again. Now, with that said for those types of roles that do exist on our campus, I think that’s what people are most excited about, is the ability to automate some of these duties that seem very cumbersome, to then free up our ability to even think more and create more and innovate more, and so really to get some of those things that drag us down on our to do lists that maybe this great robot or machine, or whatever it may be, could do for us much more seamless[ly] so then it frees our time up. I think that’s the excitement I’m feeling at our organization.

Taryn:
So, going back to Training Industry’s research on the 70-20-10 Model, we found that there weren’t really significant differences between the different generations when it came to how much they’re using social and on-the-job learning, and we’ll put a link in the show notes for the research and a couple of articles talking about it, but I wanted to ask both of you if you think that in your experience, that generational differences aren’t really significant when it comes to social and on-the -job learning.

Lauren:
Yeah. I’m happy to just start with this one as well. I think I would agree with that. One, I don’t love the generational theory anyways. I really feel like it’s more life stages that we experience. Anybody in their twenties experiences similar things as somebody who’s in their fifties and so forth, and so I think I would agree with that [idea] that the generations might not have as much of an influence of the way that they’re utilizing social learning but really more, what is the culture of the organization? And if the culture is driving that then really, no matter what generation you come from, you are probably going to start adapting to that culture so that you can survive. I think additionally, what my personal experience with working with really diverse groups on our campus is that, really, it’s people’s personalities, identities and learning styles that have a bigger influence in that. So, we have a large cohort of pretty big introverts, as you can imagine [at] a large research industry here that maybe they aren’t the ones going out as much, talking to their peers or engaging one-on-one [conversations] with another person, but maybe they are the ones that are going online and trying to get that content more through their own research in their individual time. So, I would agree with that, that I don’t think the generational differences have as much to play, but I think it’s more the differences come in people’s learning styles, personalities and identities.

Juliana:
Yeah. So, I would agree with what Lauren has said, and it kind of hearkens back to the definition of social learning, right? [The thing about social learning] is that we’ve all been doing it for as long as we can talk. So, I think it just takes on different forms across different generations and they all evolve — [that] would kind of be my high-level view of that, and I also think that it’s great that you guys redid the research, and I read that, and I was so glad that somebody did an update on the research, because I think things have shifted since it was first done. So, I’m excited to have that link to send to people as well, but I would also add, I did some work actually with a group a few times around the difference in the generations, because one of the larger companies in this cohort felt like they were struggling with this, and when we really mapped it out between the three different generations in the workforce, they found that the older workforce  and the younger workforce were actually more similar than the Gen[eration] X, basically that sat in the middle. And I find that kind of fascinating, because I think we think that it’s more the two on the ends that are very different, and they are actually very similar when it comes to values, and how they do things and, in part, there’s that social learning aspect where they tend to want to talk to people or figure things out with their peers. Millennials will just go online more to find it, so they have a different medium maybe in which they do the social learning, but those two groups are heavily doing social learning. It’s more the Gen Xers that we found to be kind of the sad group in the middle that feel like they’re really having to push themselves forward versus kind of more the lone group than figuring things out together. So that was fairly fascinating, but I think that as we evolve, there’s different mediums that we’re doing different social learning in and some will catch up, and from a generational perspective, some won’t be interested in some of the things that come out, and then the other thing is the learning that can happen between the youngest generation in the workforce, which is slowly shifting actually, with the oldest … there’s a lot of cross-learning that can be done there, and that’s what other organizations are finding, is that when they pair these two generations up, there’s a lot of benefit for both sides.

Taryn:
It might be my bias as a member of the millennial generation, since we’re complained about so much, but I love what you both are saying about how different generations can learn from each other, and also I think how we also have a lot in common across generations, and that things like personality and life stages also really count for something.

Juliana:
Yeah. It was such a shock for the two groups to be so similar, and then when they realized that their values were actually very similar, there was a shift in the group of kind of mutual respect for that, even though it’s maybe done or approached in different ways, and I think that’s what is kind of fascinating about it when you do look at the generational work is, I think we pick on the differences a lot, but when you look at the similarities, there are also a lot of similarities across generations. That’s kind of interesting.

Sarah:
Yeah, definitely, and going off of that, how has your organization used social learning to create and share better content?

Lauren:
I’m happy to start with that one. So, I primarily provide learning solutions through still face-to-face instructor-led [methods], and so I think a huge shift I’ve seen in my learning organization, and with my trainers and OD consultants, is that we have been intentionally embedding much more interactivity as far as sharing experiences with one another in the room and we find consistently, [because] we always get amazing feedback from our participants, that is the number one thing that they took away — was being able to learn from their other colleagues from across campus of what they’re doing. And so I think just the more and more that we can build in those moments of being able to pull [from others’ experiences], right? It goes right back to the adult learning theory of pulling in the experiences that these wonderful people already have, and being able to learn from one another in that capacity, that really thrives in this organization. I’m sure it thrives in many organizations, but particularly [in] this one we do see a very positive response to that. So, that’s one way that we’ve done it in the instructor-led environment and in the classroom environment, and the other way that we’re trying to push out this from more of a holistic standpoint is really creating robust learning journeys for our folks across the organization. So, [it’s] fairly role-specific as Juliana was saying: Depending on what level in the organization you sit in, here is a curated learning journey that would probably help you be more successful in your role, whether you’re an individual contributor, newer to the organization, you’re a mid-level senior manager [or] you’re an executive leader. So, here are some articles, TED talks, instructor-led options, online videos, things like that … so really trying to give them a platform so that, I think going back to Juliana’s point, that they’re not out there just trying to find all of this [content] and cherry pick it themselves, but [rather] that we’ve laid out a really nice learning journey, or learning adventure, for them that they can choose to go down.

Juliana:
Yeah, that’s great, and [to] kind of jump off from there, so, similar to what Lauren was saying, we’ve primarily done a lot of work within our different clients on what I think we would call in the learning space, kind of multimodal experiences, and do a lot of work of architecting the view of a role. So, from the time somebody is being onboarded all the way through their development, and potentially onto their next role, what does that end-to-end learning architecture look like, and mapping it out [is important]. So, this kind of links back to the part of what I was saying about learning as a service, essentially. If you have it mapped out, and you know where everything sits that somebody goes through along the way, it’s easier to keep it up-to-date and fresh from a content perspective, but what happens essentially in all of these architectures that we create is that there are different things that people are going to read, watch, go through, or be in the room together for, or to learn, along the way. So, we’ve also created online communities for individual roles so that they can go on, and talk to peers at different levels in the role in a more immediate sense if there’s questions, and we’ve found that to work really well, but it’s not an either-or [situation]. So, to Lauren’s point, we’ll also still continue to do in-person events, but those kind of events tend to be more of a workshop where people are able to review all of the material they’ve been through, and talk through it with their peers, versus getting fresh, new content in that experience, and expect to be able to do something with it. So, it’s really about cementing what it is that they’re learning, and how it’s being applied on the job so that they can continue to apply, and get better at something, than it is about learning something new. The other thing I would say, is that we’ve used a lot of video from a peer perspective in online experiences so that people are hearing from people that have done the job before that have been successful in the role talk about how it was they applied some process, or how they ran some meetings, or the different interactions that they had with their customers or their peers during meetings. So, we’ve used a lot of that as well in order to bring concepts to life, so that people can understand how it’s actually supposed to be done on the job, and they’re more apt to then go do it. So, those are a lot of the different ways that we’ve seen kind of bringing this to life, and I think it’s more weaving in all of the components together into a social learning architecture than it is a lone thing, or a lone program out there, and then expecting people to engage around that program.

Sarah:
Yeah, I think that’s great, and what are some final tips both of you can leave us with for implementing social learning, and content curation effectively?

Lauren:
I would say definitely always start with the basics as far as when it comes to curating content, and really knowing the needs of your organization, whether that’s through a formal needs assessment, or again, great consultation conversations with your learners, and your leaders, but I think that’s one thing is really understanding the pulse of the organization, the issues, the gaps that they’re experiencing, and really letting that drive the content curation, versus the other way around of ‘Oh, this is this shiny, new thing, it looks really exciting. How do we make this fit into what our organization needs? So, I’m a firm believer of always going back to what’s tried and true, and what has been working well when it comes to needs assessment, and understanding the gaps in the organization, and I think when it comes to the social learning aspect of it is, I would say from my perspective, that opportunity really lies heavily on the manager of a unit, and how is the manager engaging around that as far as encouraging folks to interact with one another, partnering up buddies with one another, a new employee with more seasoned employee, do they allow that time for people just to socialize and learn from one another? So, I think that being able to communicate the value add that those supervisors and direct managers have on creating this social learning environment is critical to success, especially just at such a large organization that I work at where we have over 8,000 employees.

Juliana:
Yeah, that’s great, and I would also kind of harken back to something that we said in the beginning, and I love Lauren that you said I’m an internal consultant, and I think that is a key aspect that we’ve seen, and we’ve implemented with other clients as well as for the enablement group, or the learning group, to really see themselves as a consultant to the business to understand what’s going on, how the business works, how the different roles work in the business, and how do we support those, right? Because that’s what we’re really there to do — is to support those roles so that they can go and do something for the business. You know, whether it be a university, or a nonprofit or a for-profit business, I think those are all very similar, and there’s a lot of money that’s spent in the industry, and so how do we make sure that what we’re creating is relevant [and] easy to consume for the audience that we’re consuming it for? So, I love going out and figuring out where do the people hang out, and where do they learn on a regular basis, and [then] try[ing] to infuse that knowledge into what it is that we create for them, so it doesn’t feel like they’re going somewhere else for kind of the company learning, versus just being on the job, and I think that’s something that Josh Burson has talked a lot about is the learning, and the flow of work, and I think understanding where people are coming from and where they’re at is a huge aspect to being able to create something that’s easy for them. So, that consultative, facilitative mindset, not going in and thinking that you have the answer is really important today so that we can really curate what people need, because if we don’t do that, and kind of create that for them, they will go find it somewhere else, and that is not a great place to be in. So, knowing your business, knowing your audience [and] knowing the customers of your business I think are really, really key for any learning professionals today with social learning and the content curation aspect.

Taryn:
Alright. Well, Lauren Harris of the University of Colorado Boulder, and Juliana Stancampiano of Oxygen Learning. Thanks so much to you both for joining us today.

Lauren:
Thank you for having me.

Juliana:
Yeah, thanks for having us.

Taryn:
Scott, it’s been so great hosting this podcast with you, but Sarah, I’m so excited to have you on board.

Scott:
Well, from my perspective, it’s been a privilege. I’m looking forward to becoming a listener, rather than a co-host, and I wish you both the best.

Taryn:
If you’re enjoying this podcast, we encourage you to rate it, and leave us a review on your podcast app to help other learning leaders find us.

Sarah:
And as always, you can find resources we mentioned in this episode in the show notes at trainingindustry.com/training-industry-podcast. See you next time.

Outro:
If you have feedback about this episode, or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com, or use the contact us page at Trainingindustry.comcontact us page at Trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.

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